Why do pitchers bat 9th

It was pointed out that if a team's best hitter batted first, he would hit with the bases empty leading off the game, and would follow the seventh, eighth, and ninth batters the rest of the game. Bragan was nonplussed. Batting them at the bottom of the order means that they will bat many fewer times during the season. But let us not fret. Almost all managers, with the exception of those who manage National League teams, can have their best power hitter bat first and not have to worry about juggling the rest of the batting order too much.

The rule that has resulted in the National League becoming the only league that plays baseball the way it was meant to be played, the Designated Hitter Rule, allows a manager to have Albert Pujols lead off and not have to be concerned about where the pitcher hits because he doesn't hit.

A complex situation that is different for each team is based on a simple concept. Let us assume that the team's best hitter bats third, but he is now leading off. The clean-up hitter bats second, the eighth and ninth batters should have high on base averages and good speed, and the rest of the lineup would be fairly traditional. I pulled out my lineup simulator and created a lineup composed of the composite average of a MLB leadoff hitter, a no.

The model that I use is a Monte Carlo Markov simulator, which essentially uses a bunch of dice rolls to simulate a baseball game. I ran that model through , simulated nine-inning games. Afterward, I flip-flopped the pitcher and the eight-hole hitter. We see that the pitcher hitting eighth wins… once you get to the third and fourth decimal place. Not 0. And at that, some of that is blunted by the fact that rarely do teams let their pitchers bat past the sixth or seventh inning my model plays all nine so the difference between the two models should probably be chopped by about a third.

Additionally, in this simulation, the pitcher was always swinging away. In fact, when anti-DH advocates make their case, they often point to the delightful agony of this particular situation.

But if you pinch-hit here, you lose the pitcher and have to hope that your bullpen is solid. Now batting… who? Some of these may be relievers. Some of them may not be the nine-spot, because of double switches, but right now I just want to establish something.

In the seventh inning, the rate is down to roughly one quarter! Now that decision is a pretty big one. Maybe someone has to get four outs today instead of three or maybe the fourth-best reliever has to pitch today. Pretty much, no matter what he does, the manager gives up value somewhere.

His team is losing, although the game is close within two runs. Our pitcher has only given up three or fewer runs. This is a situation that a manager faces in In other words, a manager is going to have multiple games during the year in which he has to make a choice between some much-needed offense or keeping the pitcher in the game and where the game could be very much in the balance.

He has to make that decision. But how often does this set of circumstances visit the eight-spot in the lineup? A quick comparison:. If the pitcher is batting eighth, that means that the manager will have to make that decision two or three more times per year than he otherwise would have to.

He might be pitching well, but why risk an injury? But even if we allow that one of those situations might have the decision made for him, we still have one or two extra times where the manager is in a tough spot tactically, all because he hit the pitcher eighth and that decision snuck up on him. If the manager hits the pitcher ninth, then in these extra situations, it would be the eighth-spot hitter at the plate, rather than the pitcher.

Note: I looked to see how often real eighth-spot hitters are intentionally walked in these situations. The answer is—surprise! The average eight-hole hitter in had a. All of a sudden, most, if not all, of what little value there was to be gained from hitting the pitcher eighth is gone. It looks daring. The biggest effect might be that it probably annoys the guy who has to hit ninth behind the pitcher. Pitchers hitting eighth is the bumper sticker of baseball.

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Thank you for reading This is a free article. Subscribe now. In This Article View article on legacy site. Russell A. Louis Cardinals. You need to be logged in to comment. Login or Subscribe. Your thinly veiled line about Babe Ruth got me thinking: did he only hit 8th or 9th in the order on his pitching days? That seems like a wasted opportunity. Reply to swarmee. This is a fascinating read here: Babe Ruth 's batting game log for The Red Sox had started using him as PH in the years before, but now we see him starting to play 1B and LF early in the season, moving into the cleanup spot, and still taking the occasional turn in the rotation.

Because he was the pitcher. That didn't last though. Ruth didn't pitch as much during , but when he did, he hit 4th. Reply to pizzacutter.

Did you play out other lineups? For instance, what if the pitcher hit 7th, and had the 7 hitter hit 9th? I realize the second cost becomes greater, but I would still be interested in seeing what the "optimal" lineup construction is for , assuming there are no substitutions like at the end.

Reply to momansf. If I had the processor power to re-run Ruane's study, I would. This is a fascinating little topic and there's a little bit of room here and there for lineup optimization. I think we might have to settle for basic principles on the order of "Stop hitting the bad hitter leadoff just because he's fast! First, I used a team of 9 clones who hit the aggregate NL line of. Next, I inserted a "pitcher" for one of the clones, and gave him a.

If you hit this hitter 8th, you lose only. To me, it seems the advantage of this "8th vs 9th" decision is. Additionally, if you insert a hitter who is obviously better than the pitcher but worse than the clones, give him a. I like your experiment design better, taking aggregate production for each of the slots, but I'm interested that when you change the experiment to 7 clones, the decision to hit the weak link 8th becomes more clear. Reply to LanceShull. The Baseball Musings tool uses a much simpler algorithm.

Mine actually simulates innings and knows that after three outs, the inning resets. I also have inputs for speed and some baserunning events as well as double plays. Given Tom Ruane's work, I very much doubt the difference of.

Another rationale for batting the pitcher 8th is that it allows you to remove him from the game sooner. I believe Maddon mentioned that factor at least once.

Sometimes that first guy out of the bullpen isn't much worse than the starter. Also, the pinch hitter can be selected to make a favorable matchup with the opposing pitcher and the subsequent reliever can matchup with the opponent's upcoming hitters -- also advantages. It also make a bit more sense in home games because the pitcher already got the top of the inning in before being lifted.

This lineup card, like most in major league history, has the pitcher batting ninth. The urge to bat the pitcher ninth is so strong that Hall of Famers Babe Ruth and George Sisler both batted ninth as pitchers in seasons during which they hit in the heart of the order when they played in the field. But in recent years, some managers have moved the pitcher out of the ninth spot in the order on a frequent basis one manager, as you may know, far more than others.

This post will not include what those managers said about their decisions to modify the traditional batting order, nor will it make any attempt at analysis to determine if using the pitcher elsewhere in the order is more effective. What I will do is quantify the use of this tactic and show the teams and managers that have used it most often. Babe Ruth hit cleanup as a pitcher for the Red Sox. Babe Ruth : When Ruth was a full-time pitcher, through , he batted ninth.

But starting in he saw more action as an outfielder than as a pitcher. In he batted cleanup while pitching 11 times and seventh once. He batted ninth in seven of his starts. In he batted cleanup in 13 of his mound starts and ninth in the other two.

Ruth started four games as a pitcher for the Yankees , during the years when he was a full-time outfielder, and batted third or fourth in all of them.

The Babe may be the only man in major league history to pitch a shutout while batting cleanup, his last major league shutout in Cubs manager Joe Maddon put his pitcher in the eighth spot four times in the postseason; details to follow.

George Sisler made the Hall of Fame as a first baseman and a. George Sisler : Sisler was primarily a first baseman and an outfielder as a rookie in , but he also pitched 70 innings. He batted ninth in all of his pitching starts that season, even though he typically batted third and never ninth in other games.

Sisler also batted ninth in the first game he started on the mound in , despite having batted third or fourth in all his previous starts in the field that year.

But in his two pitching starts later that season and one in he batted third. That includes the game in which he pitched a shutout against Walter Johnson and the Senators, which may make Sisler the only player in major league history to pitch a shutout while batting third.

Allan Travers, who pitched for Detroit that day, batted third. Travers went the distance on the hill that day and allowed 24 runs, still the most ever allowed by a pitcher in a major league game. It was his only professional baseball appearance; he went on to become a Jesuit priest. Doc Crandall : Crandall played a handful of games in the infield when he was with the Giants from , even starting a few games at first, second and short, and was occasionally used as a pinch-hitter; he was a.

When he jumped to St. Louis of the Federal League in , he was used extensively at both second base 55 starts and the mound 21 starts plus six relief appearances. He led the team in batting average with a. Just to show how strong the instinct was to bat the pitcher ninth, he normally batted ninth that year when he pitched and higher in the order as high as third when he played second, but in his final three pitching starts that year he batted fifth twice or sixth.

He was used exclusively as a pitcher the next year and won 21 games, while also pinch-hitting 35 times, and he batted seventh in one start. When he joined the St. Louis Browns in he was almost exclusively a pinch-hitter, and in his final major league season, with the Dodgers in , he started three games on the mound and two in right field.

Ed Konetchy : Konetchy played more than 2, career games at first base. He batted in what was then his regular spot in the order, sixth, when he made his one major league pitching start in for the Boston Braves pitching a complete game but getting clobbered. I have more about both those games in this post. Jack Bentley : Bentley was both a batting and pitching star in the minor leagues leading the International League in both RBI and ERA in and also pitched a little in the majors in his younger days.

The New York Giants acquired him in as a pitcher, but in , the Phillies picked him up and switched him to first base. He normally batted fifth when he played first, and Bentley also hit fifth in his first start as a pitcher that season, although he hit ninth in two later starts. Bucky Walters batted higher than ninth twice while pitching for the Phillies.

Bucky Walters : Walters was primarily a third baseman in the majors until he made his first pitching start in the final game of the season he batted ninth in that game ; in the first game of the doubleheader, starting at third base, he batted seventh , and I wonder if that makes him the only man in major league history to start one game of a doubleheader in the field and the other on the mound.

From on he was primarily a pitcher, normally batting ninth except for a game when he batted seventh in and a game when he batted eighth and pitched a shutout in Walters started games in the field in and and always batted higher in the order when he did. Johnny Lindell : Lindell reached the major leagues as a pitcher, having never played any other position in the minors , but was a full-time outfielder with the Yankees from He then went back to the minors, started pitching again, and returned to the majors as a pitcher in He typically batted ninth when he pitched that year, but he batted fifth in two of his starts he also batted fifth in two starts at first base.

Dark singled in the second inning to raise his season batting average to an even. His replacement at third was Wes Westrum — the only one of the major league games he played in the field that Westrum played any position but catcher. In his first five major league seasons, Hall started at least one game at every position except shortstop and catcher. He became a full-time pitcher in and went on to a long career as a relief pitcher; his last major league appearance in Game 2 of the World Series , came two weeks after his 41st birthday.

Cesar Tovar : Tovar was the starting pitcher and leadoff hitter in the game in which he played all nine positions in Obscure fact: no starting pitcher batted in the number two spot in the order in the period. That happened in a game in ; Sonnanstine was not listed in the original batting order, but he wound up hitting third after Rays manager Joe Maddon submitted a lineup card with two third basemen and no designated hitter.

Sonnanstine took advantage of the rare opportunity to bat in an American League game by hitting an RBI double. That month Jack Coombs hit eighth three times and Eddie Plank once. Plank also batted eighth in a game.

Walter Johnson batted as high as fifth in the order while pitching for the Washington Senators. The first true pitcher who made extensive starts batting anywhere but ninth was Walter Johnson. In he batted sixth in his final start of the season and homered! In he batted sixth three times. Then in he batted seventh eight times , sixth once and batted fifth on June 1, the highest position in the lineup ever from on, anyway for a pitcher who did not also have extensive experience as a position player.

That made a total of 10 pitching starts in which Johnson did not bat ninth that year. In he batted eighth once ; in he batted eighth once and seventh once ; in he batted eighth once and sixth once.

From on Johnson hit only in the ninth spot as a starting pitcher. He actually started six games in the outfield in his career, never batting ninth in any of them one in — the final game of the season in which he batted cleanup and also pitched and played second base — one in , two in and two in , and was a. In three of his pitching starts in September he batted sixth.

Red Lucas knew what he was doing with that bat in his hand. Lucas was a. All hit eighth except for Wynn, who became the first pitcher to be in the starting lineup batting sixth since Walter Johnson in This was the first time a pitcher made more than two starts in a season batting outside the ninth spot since Johnson in